Has anyone else experienced or heard of reverse-discriminati...

Boris, unfortunately, this is quite, QUITE, common. The ESL teacher (or NET) isn’t only at a school only for the language, it’s also for "show". I and others were often "marched out" for Parents Day and the like.My suggestion would be to try schools in Vietnam or Indonesia instead, if you’re committed to the Asia thing. Otherwise, you need to go where you are the commodity both in education and in public relations. Australia or New Zealand of any interest?

Hi Boris yes This sadly very common- I used to work for a hagwon in South Korea that would only hire native speakers who looked"western" meaning white. They refuse to consider anyone who was not caucasion. He even selected his staff on how attractive they were.

Hi Boris, I’m a Korean adoptee who grew up in the US. I’ve live here since I was 4 months old, so I hardly consider myself Korean except for my appearance. I faced quite a lot of discrimination when applying for jobs in Asia, but you just have to tough it out and keep applying to different places. I ended up getting a job in South Korea and the kids were very confused as to why I couldn’t speak Korean, but I was glad the owner decided to give me the opportunity. You just have to hang in there and someone will give you a break.

Thanks everyone for your replies... I guess it’s just a sobering realization...

And thanks Amanda for your words of encouragement/advice. I’m just plugging away and applying to as much as I can find and hopefully my quantity over quality approach will have something stick!

@Donalda... Ya, I’m pretty much set on China because it’s not just about teaching English for me, it’s also about learning Mandarin... so it’s China or bust!

Yes, I have worked in the Middle East which I think is representative of the rest of third world. If recruiters want someone from North America or Europe, they are specifically asking for white candidates. The politically correct doxies of North American and Europe have not reached the rest of the world.

sad but true. i’m a NYC born and raised turkish/polish american but after reading my turkish name on job applications i was told i’d receive a "turkish" salary rather than a "native speaker" salary (the turkish salary is half!!). i fought with them and the admin told me to reapply with a different name. i did and it worked but i’m not proud of this fact ): another company accused me of lying about being a native speaker bc my name is local... it’s so awful!

If you want to learn Mandarin, I suggest Taiwan to learn traditional characters which will make it easier to learn simplified characters. Do you have a wife or a friend that’s not Asian looking that you will be travelling with? You can tag along with them. I know that’s not a good solution, I know. Just keep pluggin away and someone will drop you a bone. It just won’t be a high salary, that’s all. = (

Boris, How’s it goin’, ey?? Don’t worry ey. something will come along ey.Well, I am a White Boy and have felt discrimination. It is not just a Black thing. Maybe I should be Korean. Joking!!!

Boris,

When I was teaching in Korea this was quite common for Koreans with perfect English and the Korams (Korean Americans.) It seems as though Korean students didn’t want to learn conversational English at least from another Korean. All I can tell you is that to look for a school that needs both fluent English and Chinese speakers... this is especially true for grammar-type classes.

Hi Boris,
I’ve read your statement below and i also have experienced this kind situation, but there is hope!! I was living in Guilin, which is, although beautiful, pretty backwards in many respects due to it being in the countryside. i am of white descent, and my roommate was a black man from zimbabwe. Even though he did encounter similar problems to you with getting work, he was able to find work eventually. I know it is risky but if you are in china itself, you will have more opportunities than over skype. I have seen it first hand if you are in the country, then maybe people who need teachers will take a chance on you, regardless of race. I hope this was helpful.

Hello Boris, Sorry to tell you but from my 3yrs in Asia I have learned Asian countries (specifically China) are big time racist. I have more than my share of stories. It’s unfortunate that people of today’s world are still so unlearned and overlook perfect skills in individuals all because of their skin color. Only people that have never been discriminated on can say different. It’s the life story of many of us. Good luck just keep searching

I have experienced the same by in my own home town through a Chinese school although the owner would not tell me to my face, she had a complaint from one student that I was unavailable which was unfounded because the student was difficult to reach too, and would not even here my side of the story. Then I had to argue to get paid, such outfits are best to avoid. One key is to examine management wherever you, if there is a sense of confusion, disorganization, rudeness and incidents like the above, look elsewhere, There are many countries having schools where race is a non issue. Ask the school up front and then see.

On addition even caucasions who are from the wrong country have problems in South Korea. I am English and I was asked if I could try to sound American when taught I agreed to standardise my natural Northern English vowels but I drew the line at even trying to sound American. I was Teaching English not American.

It is pretty common I am afraid. There was an ad last year from a school in the north of China which stated if you were `white, blonde , young, pretty, and female` then they would `hire` you as a teacher. It disgustingly concluded `no blacks, pakis` etc. There is a great deal of racism in China. More than I have mentioned here

Boris, It’s all about how things look. I have a PhD and am STILL required to post a photo and asked rude questions about what I look like.

Hey Boris, I worked in China for a few years. The places where you’ll find a job are in specialty areas, not just the regular ESL areas. I worked with Chinese-American Accounting Professors and Chinese-Malaysian Finance Professors. Also larger organizations that employ a lot of teachers (like universities) often will hire ’face’ teachers for ESL and specialty teachers for specific areas.

If I lived in Canada though, I would NOT be going to China. Canada’s economy is roaring! I’ve seen oil-field jobs advertised for $100K.

Boris Pan,
Welcome into the world of the unwritten laws. My first impression would be you would not want to work for such outfit anyway. Still living in the past and will in a short time learn a Lesson that would stay with them for a lifetime.

Focus on your abilities and move past such dark things. There is a whole world out there and it is colorful. So there is more than enough for each of us.

Enjoy the process.

Sorry mate, but this lame practice is common in Asia. Taiwan employs Chinese returnees as well as whites, etc. and pays 3x what the mainland pays. Apply there.
Richard

Dear Boris,
If they can’t see how good a candidate you are that’s there problem as there are so many other countries you can apply to.I suffer from age discrimination both in Australia and China and other parts of the world. Forget China and try Taiwan!
Regards. Duncan

Hi Boris,
I agree with Janis. Discrimination is common place in Asia generally compared to some western countries. In my country, such practices have been illegal for 3 decades or more. For example, in Thailand, some jobs are blatantly offering jobs to ’Females only’ - of a certain age and nationality. SO you will need to grow a thicker skin to survive in this industry. Having said that.. ’reverse’-discrimination? I for one scoff at that term. There is no such thing as REVERSE-discrimination. That term is a discrimination it itself. Equal opportunity does not discriminate after all. All the best Boris.

Boris,
What people say for not selecting you and what the real reason is for passing you-up are two different things. As many have said already, explanations aside for not getting selected, stay focused on improving your presentations till it clicks. Humanity is no-where near answering the question "why" to any situation. We are still in our infancy in our understanding of the complexities of life, existence and causes of difficulties we encounter. Stay positive......

Hi Boris,
I wouldn’t rule out all Chinese schools, but you are going to have trouble. It’s because it’s not so much about education there yet, it’s about how it looks on the outside. It’s a shame too because if there’s any advantage you would have is that the kids wouldn’t be afraid of you as much!! A lot of little ones are terrified of foreigners at first, so breaking the ice would be easier for you.

Anyway, I’d suggest that you keep trying. There are SO many jobs in China, there must be a school who is open enough to employ you. I can think of one school at least, so therefore, there must be others.

As some have said here, the worst case situation is you’ll have to start on a lower salary. Nothing entices Chinese schools more than seeing an opportunity to get a good teacher for peanuts. I do love China but I’m sorry to say that "fairness" is NOT in there vocabulary.

All the best of luck to you my fellow teacher!!

Please explain: What is ’reverse-discrimination’? Reversing the process of discrimination sounds like retaliation, whereas discrimination might be based on a wide range of attributes associated with the target.

Hello, Boris, my first suggestion to you is not refer yourself as speaking ’perfect’ English, because there is no such aspect. No one speaks Perfect English, he or she may convey in communicating perfectly, but not always in casual speaking. Also, I’m from Chinese descent, but mixed with European and British, however, in America (I wasn’t born in America, later naturalized), my ethnic background has always been identified as ’Chinese’, whilst in China, I was also considered ’Chinese’ but with mixed blood. My first position was teaching at a Chinese private school, an American liaison had provided my CV and photo to the headmaster and he liked me instantly, can’t say as quickly as the students. Nevertheless I can say, as time progressed, they respected me as well I to them. Teaching older students, college entry level, were more appreciative that a person who looks Chinese is able to ’break the bonds from China’ to travel and live abroad. By my third school in China, most of the parents didn’t care for me at first, but later when they saw my teaching methods and how well I interacted their students, the parents respected my methodology. As a suggestion and I don’t know what type of questions the recruiter are inquiring, but upon that you’re telling how great your English speaking-ability is, to me, that is very one-sided. If you tell the recruiter of your method of reaching and teaching students (which I offered, even when questioned about my Chinese descent) I had gotten offers. Speak highly what you can do for the students, not just the fact you can speak ’perfect’ English. Remember, English is a form of communicating, sharing information, and helping others. Wishing you the best in getting that position!

"Reverse Prejudice" is a huge issue throughout Asia and I wouldn’t come to Vietnam or Indonesia if you think you will avoid it. They want "White" show ponies in Vietnam. Indonesia will pay you WAY less because you are "Asian" looking.

ESL Teachers United.org

Unfortunately, that is the way it is in China, and that includes Taiwan. I was in Taiwan for five years, and many Canadian-born Chinese told me they had the same problem. Perhaps you should rethink going to China?

Hello Boris: I see that you have already received many comments. I too am a Canadian Chinese, and have felt the touch, ok maybe slap of this discrimination. I have also been blessed the past few years to have worked in the Arab countries and was employed by schools that didn’t discriminate against me. I have traveled to South East Asia and hated it, again because of this problem. The western/white/caucasian people are revered because of their ’looks’. It is an unfortunate fact of life but if you do want to teach overseas I would suggest you keep your chin up, maybe apply to other countries rather than in China etc. Go for the African or Arab countries. Good luck.

Hi Boris,

I can’t speak specifically for your experience in China, however I did work in South Korea for a few years, and I know that school owners would hire prefer to hire "Western" looking teachers over anyone else.
From what I was told by people in your situation, (facing discrimination) was to focus on public schools and try to stay clear of private cram schools. That’s not to say that you won’t face the same situations in a public school, but there is less of a chance of it happening.
All the best to you!

In Asia image and appearance is everything and substance seems to be of little value. As someone else commented, it’s the same in Korean hagwons. However, hagwons here in Korea are known for their shoddy business practices. If you’re looking for work and China isn’t manadatory, working for EPIK in Korea (the public school system) is a bit better as far as contract guarantees and actually being paid. I heard from friend who have taught in China, that contract breaches and salary loss is common. It can be the same in Korea if working for private institutes (hagwons). Hagwon owners often keep your taxes, health insurance premiums and retirement benefits and have been known to fire people in the 10th month of a contract to avoid paying return airfare and year end bonuses. This doesn’t happen in the public system. Although it’s not without it’s problems, it’s a really steady gig. If you’re a good teacher and you do well, you can stay 5 years. I’m currently on my 4th year in Chungcheongnam province. It’s rural living, but it’s okay. It’s close enough to China that one can visit easily by ferry or plane on summer and winter breaks too.

Hi Boris

I run a western managed school in China. I would be happy to employ you. No discrimination here.

Regards

Hey Boris
Stay away from GCC countries esp. Dubai...HUGE racism in ESL industry
You get paid based on the followings
1- color of your hair, eyes and skin ( top dollar for blonds)
2- your race (esp your father’s race)
3- your place of birth
4- your passport and nationality
5- last AND least your qualifications and experience
The racism here has to be experienced to be believed

Hi Boris,
I know what you mean, I have been living and teaching in china for about 7 years, I also have the problem of colour, my father comes from africa and my mother is english, many times when applying for jobs as soon as I send my picture I never hear from them again. Hang in there something will turn up.

Yes, Boris. That’s the hard and bitter reality. It’s a white man’s world. I am an American of Pakistani origin. I can’t even get a job interview for ESL teacher in Saudi Arabia, UAEmirates, Arabian Gulf States, etc. All agencies responsible for hiring are managed by whites. I was flatly told that my M.A. & B.A. degrees were not from an English speaking country (USA, UK, Canada, Australia, etc.). I was a Journalist for over 20 years and author of 3 books (in English) and have seen the Irish, the Scottish, typical Londoners and the Aussies speaking terrible English but they qualify. You and me, no matter how good we are at English, don’t stand a chance against the white skin. I am not a racist but this is the harsh reality and we have to accept it. We might get a chance with some unknown private language school (mostly run by thieves) that would hire us for peanuts/pennies with no benefits of any kind. The only thing we’ve got on our side is ’hope’ and that’ll get us somewhere, someday, somehow. Good luck!

Hi all thanks for the replies you’ve all sent.

I want to clarify to Kaye that I would never say to the interviewer that I speak perfect English. In fact that was just how I described it for the purposes of this forum. In fact I don’t talk about my English at all in the interviews. I just let what I say be the proof of tone, accent etc. I have gotten 3 interviews since the beginning of august. And of those 3 I have gotten great responses from all. One place actually offered me a job but could’t get the work permit approved.

@Josh thanks for the offer I will take you up on it. I’m writing this on my mobile phone. When I get to my desk at home. I will reach out to you. Do you have an email I can get you at? I’m at Boris.pan "at" gmail dot com.

Thanks!

Not to worry. I was asked to leave the offices of Tesco in Krakow, Poland by a Polish secretary who said I wasn’t able to speak English well. The annoying thing is, I am English, born and bred. Mad world isn’t it.

Thank you for responding to Kaye’s msg. I wanted to as well, but I don’t think I would have been as diplomatic. Again good luck Boris!

Boris how are you ?Peter from the gold coast queensland (australia) mate i empathise with you BIG time im qualified in many different areas including TESOL i cant get a job period overseas or in australia im about to change my career through the goverment im 64 and refuse to give up NO WAY DO I GIVE UP EVER !!!!!!!!!!!! take care peter

Hi Boris Sorry to hear about your experience. I think because it is an employer’s market at the moment, that sadly they can treat applicants in a very cavalier, off hand fashion, and get away with it. I have become familiar with this here in Britain where I live and I am white middle class, but I think my age is putting them off. One school in Portugal who were keen to consider me, interviewed me on Skype and said I was over qualified for the post, but I don’t think that was the reason.Perhaps they didn’t like my face. Who knows?? Good luck with your job hunt!
Regards Yvonne

same everywhere Boris. I am a post war refugee, and spent my childhood being thrown around Europe as a d.p. - refugee- I find that only foreigners who are not sure of the politics of Europe will employ me for my SKILLS. No one of my family’s home-countries, even though my mother was the President’s Russian interpreter back at home, post-war. This is infact one reason why people drift towards dictators- as they often care about skills they need, rather than your background or your birth place! I cannot tell you how often I have had this same problem- it was always thus- hence as the ’Great Three Alies’ changed borders far from their own homes, all people left behind in their former home could do was to go into business and when they proved to be better than the new indigenous at that, they were ousted! In the new country, you are always a foreigner! Always! My way round it was to work in the ethnic minority community- with whom I have a lot of empathy. Our world is not fair in any way- but I have to say China was reasonable before about its education but is changing rapidly, at the same time, its ’’jelly kids’’ are growing in numbers! Odd that the two go together!

to Peter Fairless’s comment- German, albeit Tyrolean, is my mother tongue- and my university degree was mixed English / German/Russian, but English is my first language for many decades. I nearly fell over laughing when I had this same thing happen to me at a friend’s home who runs a translation business in Leipzig - when I offered to help her with translations (my teaching was by a Cambridge man and very strict he was too!) Not only that but she has never lived in a native english speaking country. I hate to say this, but I had dreadful experiences in Leipzig as german speaking English person whilst at Uni there and working in the English language field, I was treated like a prize idiot, not someone who had eight years of Cambridge teaching and hundreds of successful passes over the years- and also worked for a German School who poached me because my success rate was so high! I honestly just gave up after that!

hi Boris, why is your first job declined? One place actually offered you a job but could’t get the work permit approved.
Did they explain to you?

Bala I like your posative comments, as someone who has tried to get work in Italy, France, and Singapore
I have believed that it is my age 57 years that has put employers off but maybe it isn’t ? One thing I know teaching has become a profession where everything is stacked in favour of the employer as opposed to the canditate applying, given the high unemployment and recession in most countries I guess this applys to most employers, they can now be incredibly picky and demanding. They will get as much as they can for as little as they can possibly pay. Oh dear there I go being negative again. Shame on me.

I here many tesol teachers say I wonder how ide like it to work in a certain country be adventuriose 000000ps but first you’ve got to get the job!!!! the competition is hard going peter

Hi Boris. Yes, this is a shame. To tell you the truth, in China and some other Asia countries "White" is the only color. That is because a white face is like a poster-boy / girl for the school. It's a critical marketing component for them, and something the parents expect to see. In my experience (15 years), racism is a global phenomena that is not restricted to specific ethnic groups or regional location. On a good note, not everyone is like that. I know "Whiteness" is not such a big deal in the middle eastern countries. (PS: I'm white.)