Contracts-China vs Thailand.... I am trying to see and under...

A Chinese contract is worthless

No- there is no law in China, only ’guiangxi’ = connections. your ’lawyers’ ability is based oin their ’guangxi,’ not on what a contract says, or any supposed laws

many schools in China are illegal- they pay the loca cops cash, and operate as is- my ’ Z work visa’
was gained illegaly, from another town where the school had more connections- and they took my passport and collect the visa without my pick up slip- very very illegal

I have worked in China for 3 years, Korea for 3 years, Saudi for 2 years and Russia, India, Turkey, Yemen, Lebanon for another 4 years.

China is the only place hwere I worked and the school didn’t pay- granted, Korea has a bad reputatiuon of not paying teachers as well and this is a risk at any non-government school/program

the simple asnwer is ask teacher at eh school you want to work at what the situation is- require your new empoyeer to allow you to contact current and previous employees

and, I have no idea if Thailand is any better, worse or simply the same- my guess is the same

good luck

I currently work in Thailand and I haven’t even been offered a contract. The working conditions are great and I love the school but the remuneration is way too little. Currently in discussions with a Chinese school. I have already spoken to previous teachers at the school and it all seem on the up and up.

Thailand is a beautiful place to work, depending on the area of course. Everyone in our group has different stories. Some good some bad.

I’d suggest what Charles suggested. Research!

generally the jobs in China are more numerous and pay more money than in Thailand. The one benefit for Thailand is that it is easier to get a work visa there than in China.

The only thing that holds leverage in China is ’China Law’ and much of that is based of their own value system or social laws. I am a guest here in China and our rights do not exist. Everything China does is to benefit China, contracts included. I walk tall, but carry no stick. I only get respect and rights by taking it based on the fact that I am a published author with a great list of references, but I still watch every step I take. Research all options before signing any contract. Good Luck!

Hello, Dale . . .
I had a contract in one hand, and a ticket in the other. It only took a couple of days to be contacted by the Head of School to inform me that the Department of Foreign Experts Affairs had decided I was not suitable for the position (Jinnan). End of contract. Goodbye, ticket.

Exercise caution. Consider Thailand. That would be my advice.

Chinese contracts are very tricky. Be sure to read it carefully. Check this link to be sure your school hasn’t been blacklisted or bad reviews posted www.chinaforeigntechersunion.org Government schools pay generally on time but frequently pay lower salaries. Private or language schools generally pay more but are at times late with the salary or charge fees upon your salary such as 5rmb for coming in late, 10 rmb for not wearing your badge and the list goes on. Also read the part where if you decide to quit without completing the contract. You can be charged a substantial fine for doing so. In addition, you can be blacklisted from teaching in China so be careful. Employers know this and with this being the case usually you will be at the mercy of the employer at any case. In addition, pay attention to the vacation time when it comes to completing your contract. Many do not even provide a vacation after completing one year and what they give you is paid holidays off which are national holidays. Also, one has to pay for the flight to China and subsequently reimbursed after completing the contract or receiving half after six months and the remainder upon completing the contract. This is one way to get the teacher to complete their obligated one year. Be advised not to sign a two or three year contract too. Anything can come up during that time where you must leave and return back to your country and they will charge you a fine for not completing the contract regardless of the circumstance. Also, ask if one month salary is held the first month of work. This is another way to assure the employer that if you decided to quit they have something from you usually the amount of one months salary. The best places to work in China are the international schools. They generally pay anywhere from 16,000 -25,000 rmb a month with the best benefits. But be advised that they are hard to get a job at. Also, be sure you will have two days off a week. In China, many work six days a week which leaves little time to travel or to so much more than shop for food or do your laundry on your one day off per week. Read the information on the link above. It will help you to get an accurate idea of what you will be faced with if you decide to teach in China. It is very hard to find the right school that pays a high salary with good benefits. Also be advised that the cost of living varies from province to province in China. You may think that 16,000 rmb a month is an exceptional salary but in reality wouldn’t be if this job was in Shanghai and the apartment was not included as part of the benefits. Getting in a taxi there at night is 18 rmb just to sit inside where as compared to Chengdu which only cost 7 rmb to get in. So, the location is important. As you can see, it is complicated to say the least. Do your research first about the school and the location before signing a contract. Also, lets talk a little about the food. For me, Shichuan food and GZ food is very delicious but when I went to Beijing, I couldn’t stand the food there. There are four or more major differences in the local foods offered in the various provinces. Do your research on this too. I can go on and on and as you can see it is complicated. I love China but work elsewhere for the most part and spend my money there during my summer breaks. Many foreigners once they start work in China fall in love with the lifestyle and culture and never want to leave. And, once they did leave they realize that for that entire stay in China they didn’t save much money but did have a good memorable time there.

I have lived and taught in China for the past two years at three different schools and all of them were honorable for the most part. But when you’re talking about Chinese law and how to hold a national or enterprise accountable then you don’t have a lot of power. Most schools don’t want to sign a "contract" ( basically worthless ) until you’re in the country and then they may or may not change the parameters when it’s too late for you. But, teachers have some leverage in that there are many schools in China hurting for qualified instructors and you can just bugger off to another school leaving your present school in the lurch and they know that so they will not be overly stupid ( usually ) when dealing with you. Stick to your guns and don’t sell yourself short. There is a lot of bluff when dealing with the Chinese and if you hardnose them, many times they’ll fold. China does usually pay more than other countries though so there is that to consider. Can you eat a turd or two but have the last laugh ? Only you can decide. Try to have a contract before you arrive though but that will be difficult.
Ah, the adventure of it all...

Calvert we’re going to China soon to teach and your advice has been great. THANK YOU!

Hi Dale. What the folks here have said it right on. In Thailand it is rare to be offered a contract without a face to face discussion. If you look presentable and don’t do anything impolite you will likely be offered the position. As for China, only the Chinese version of the contract has any legal weight. If you can’t read Chinese you will need to see if it says what you think it does. Other folks have given good advice on costs and such. Good luck.

Yes...Chinese contracts can be worthless....was in one and they broke it before I ever arrived! Yes...not getting paid by them would have been awful too...but you need to also be aware of other dangers....no burners to cook on...locks that do not work on apartments...no heat for weeks...poor/wrong or no translators making teaching, resolutions and life very difficult...management/staff who when you are asking them about possible changes to school/supplies/teaching or to help you leave scream, threaten "You’re @$%&#! You’ll never get out of the country!" and with hold you Passport and have the keys to your apartment etc...finally some assist to bus and supposedly booked hotel Beijing-arrived-not hotel not booked. Very frightening to have three school people, some unannounced, in you living area yelling and threatening to have you removed to the street right then-and not speak or translate for you...and American Embassy emergency number out...
You can do everything in advance to try to be certain that the school is legitimate/healthy but you best have multiple back-up plans, friends or got for an ESL in almost any other nation, it can’t be that bad. It was almost like being held hostage and threatened...weeks no heat and sometimes no cooking ability, a box spring to sleep on, water randomly stopped and not knowing if you can unlock the door to get in...
I have a heart for all nations and peoples and was so looking forward to an ESL position as an avenue to serve God and people...did not quite happen that way just yet! But believe it or not I am applying for positions in China again. I have found they are only of the only nations who hire "non-degreed" ESL.
I am checking into Thailand as well. I hope the best for all ESL folks who have a heart for the kids! Best to you,
Sherrie

I worked in China at a Canadian school. The Chinese students were fantastic! The Canadian principal was a bastard! I stayed despite his behaviors because the head of the dept was great as was the Chinese principal. If you go overseas, you can kiss worker rights goodbye. Most of the schools where I’ve taught for 23 years have been OK, but just. I go for the experience & for the opportunity to inspire students to learn science. If I demanded a safe, secure job I’ll stay home.

Hi Dale,
I worked in South Korea for four years at two schools, one private and the other, an international school. I was well aware that the contracts were more memoranda of understanding, not really legally binding documents. Without speaking the language, where was I going to go to sort out problems? And there were problems.
There is apparently a mechanism for sorting out flagrant violations but one has to go through a lawyer. Unless one has buckets of time and money, not really a viable solution. So I went on instinctdid I trust the employer(s)? That actually was the best yardstick for measuring how solid terms were. Building a cooperative relationship once in the country worked very well for me. One learns to be an effective negotiator quickly.
I’m now trying to find a job in China...I’ve looked at several contracts. They seem to contain similar language, so there must be a government provided prototype. And one must sign the Chinese version as well. Not really much protection there unless you speak/read the language.
No matter what the country, I think you have to view a foreign contract as a flexible tooland the flexibility is more on the side of the employer! Ultimately, I would suggest going on how much trust you have in the employers themselves. If you are hired by a recruiter, this is much more difficult to assess before you arrive in the country.
And going on the word of a Thai employer? Well, again, this depends on the ethical values of the employer...and whether you trust the people you will be working for.
I find working abroad requires a leap of faith anyway...I wouldn’t recommend signing a contract for longer than one year in case you find conditions are not what you want once you get there. Good luck!

I don’t know about other countries, but in China until you have received a signed and stamped contract with a red star seal, you really don’t have a job. Keep looking.

The best thing to do is to tell the school or recruiter to send you a sign and stamped contract. Then, you’ll sign it, scan it, and email it back. Otherwise, you could be held hostage. They lock you in. You think that you have secured a job, while the school can keep looking for more experienced or "cheaper" prospects. They have a contract that you’ve signed, but what do you have from them? Nothing! It happened to a friend of mine last year. He didn’t heed my advice.

Think about it. If you sign and send a school or recruiter a contract that’s not signed and sealed by the school, you have no standing. The school could say that what they sent you was merely a sample contract to look over or say that they just overlooked your email. Either way, you’re screwed! At least if you have a contract that’s signed and stamped by the school you’ll have some legal standing if you need to go to the Bureau of Foreign Experts if there is a problem.

Calvert has offered some great advice. I am an oversea Chinese, living away from the China until most recently. Chinese contracts are tricky because the Chinese words can imply different meanings. China is a huge country and it comprises of the good, the bad and the ugly operators. Research thoroughly in the school that you like to teach. Somebody once told me, three months into your teaching, you will know whether you have made the right choice. With hard work and some luck, you can be in a great school.

I am so sorry you asked this question. When it comes to any International contract you are an indentured servant. The contracts are meaningless and heavily weighted to whoever owns the school or the management. Caveat em-tor.

All contracts in the EFL/ESL world are weighted in favour of the employer for starters. It is an entire industry based on good will and promises.

Chinese abide by there half of the contract fairly well as long as.... If something went to arbitration they will look at and consider it fairly but the help goes to the Chinese school or person in the end. It’s really true for them too, like the employer would always win in a dispute. Relationship and connections are the most important thing. When there is a disagreement that leads to a problem only the Chinese can be considered, never the foreigner. Their thinking is that all foreign teachers are males and seek a Chinese wife and as soon as they marry one they together return to the US or wherever. They are not welcoming of long term residence unless you obtain a Chinese green card. Also, you persona determines much of your success as a foreign teacher. I am sure you’ll do fine, if you work well with children you’ll make the most. If you marry a Chinese lady here, then you will have the guan-xi you need to stay here permanently.

As a DOS of sorts, I was instructed on several occasions to just change teachers’ contracts without their knowledge or consent!
Is anyone going to challenge the authorities in China? I doubt it.

If you enjoy teaching stay away from China, especially Hampson Training Schools. Contracts are worthless, each city and school has different rules and regulations.
Training schools rip students and teachers off.
Universities and School jobs are low paid.
You will freeze your arse off in winter and cook in summer.
Go to Thailand.

Great advice from everyone. Seems like one has to be extremely care.